Astrology: True or False – Program 3

By: Tom Warneke, Maxine Taylor, Karen Winterburn, Dr. John Weldon, Dr. Walter Martin; ©1988

Can you trust what your astrologer tells you, or what you read in your horoscope? Do some astrologers rely on occult power to interpret charts?

How Reliable is the Information Gained through Astrology?

Ankerberg: Alright, we’re having a fascinating conversation here concerning astrology, and how does it work, and why does it work? And we actually have three professional astrologers on the platform, and one of those professional astrologers who has left. I’d like to come to you. You were making some pretty interesting statements last week. You had divided astrologers into basically three groups, and you had asked a question. I’d like you just to refresh the audience’s mind. What were those three groups and what you said and let’s pick up the conversation right there. Karen?

Winterburn: Okay. That there are three types of astrology, or three levels of astrology in terms of how well it’s done or how accurately or dramatic the successes are. The highest level is psychic, in which you need—if you don’t want to talk about spirit guides—in which you need psychic ability. You know, however you want to develop that or phrase that, you need psychic ability. The second is intuitive where you’re just psyching out the person, not necessarily psychically but just slyly, by talking to them and by using and choosing from among an array of indicators you have in your chart.

Ankerberg: We’ve had professional magicians on here that would talk about that like a “cold reading” or a psychologist would be just good at “reading people.”

Winterburn: Right.

Ankerberg: It’s not actually using astrology but you’re using other abilities.

Winterburn: Well, you’re using it. You’re priming the pump and you’re using that to talk from. And the other is bad astrology or schlock astrology which is just your, you know, what Mars in the second house and Capricorn, trine Venus in the whatever house and whatever sign. You know what all those mean, and you just look in the cookbook for the definition and you put that out and you’ve got this list of definitions, lots of which are contradictory, and, you know, you try to integrate those. So those are the three levels.

Ankerberg: And what you felt guilty about is that when you were starting to give information, you started to say, “Well, how sure am I about this information?”

Winterburn: Right. I felt that I did not have a reliable source. I felt that I didn’t know how… again, I was trying to figure out how this darned thing works. How could I get these insights, these psychic insights, to be reliable? They weren’t.

Ankerberg: Which, then you picked up another source of power. Tell us about that.

Winterburn: Yes. Well, in this search, you know, to find this out and, again, in talking to other astrologers and finding out that they had spirit guides—and this was not,… I mean, I would expect at this time this would be kind of common knowledge. It’s trendy, you know, Shirley MacLaine and all. So maybe we tell our clients this, I don’t know. We never did. As I say, it was common knowledge among ourselves that we had these sources.

There are ways to tap into these powers, and everybody had a lot of different ways, a lot of different traditions, you know, that they were involved in. And I knew some Kabbalists. I knew my mentor in astrology and my teacher was a priestess in an Egyptian religion. But this was something that you found out as you sort of moved along. The most accomplished astrologer in the area. And there were other instances of other things people were involved in that led me to believe this is the way to go.

Well, I tried putting myself in these altered states. The one that finally connected is the pretty down-home method; teenagers use it all the time. It’s the old Ouija Board. I chose the Ouija Board because I wanted something that would be objective in the sense that if thoughts came to my mind, which they eventually did—just like a computer screen, and I could see the entire text, my hands still had to move apart from my knowing what the word was going to be—and to me that felt like objectivity, you know. So I used the Ouija Board and I got over a 100-page transcript. I channeled for approximately, maybe on an average two hours a day for 18 months. I channeled several entities—two in particular—and before I tell you what they shared with me, I would like to know what Maxine feels constitutes what she would call a “wonderful” spirit guide. You know, one whom we can trust.

Taylor: Well, first of all, you’re asking me a question about an area that I’m not versed in, so I really cannot answer that except to say….

Winterburn: But you did say that there were wonderful spirit guides.

Taylor: …except…if you’ll let me finish, except to say that there are spirit guides that I’ve read about. For example, in Shirley MacLaine’s book. There’s guides that give us loving, caring information; that do not leech off of us as, apparently yours did. That would be what I would call a “loving” spirit guide. But I’m not involved in spirit guides, and I absolutely disagree with what you’re saying about the third category—that the only way to really make a hit is in an altered state. I myself when I read a chart am not in an altered state. I don’t know what you mean when you say “an altered state.” When you read a horoscope,…

Winterburn: Do you meditate, Maxine?

Taylor: …when you read a horoscope for somebody, when I read a client’s horoscope, I get their birth information ahead of time, I set up the chart, and I don’t look at it until they arrive, because I want it to be clear and fresh in my mind. When they arrive, I do not question them, I do not ask them what’s going on in their life, because it’s perfectly evident when you read it in the chart. It’s very matter-of-fact; it’s very easy to read when you’re well versed in it. I can understand what you mean about not wanting people to be dependent on you. And I do believe that people do have their free will. So I don’t have the problem that you had with it. Now, what I do with my clients is not anything with a Ouija Board or anything with a spirit guide. And the fact that I’ve been in business for 18 years says that if I were in any way giving out negative information or were not serving them—and it is my honor to serve; it is my joy to serve—….

Ankerberg: Alright, let me ask a question to you, Maxine. When Dr. Weldon was giving the statistics last week about what he saw at the convention, do you feel out of place with all of your buddies that are teaching,…and how many did you say were talking about their spirit guides?

Weldon: Well, I’d say one out of two admitted either they had spirit guides or they were influenced by spiritism in some aspect.

Ankerberg: Now, these were the people that were teaching the courses?

Weldon: Eight out of the nine courses I took, the people admitted to that. Of the 50 people I talked to or interviewed—had them fill out questionnaires—it was about one in two. But the thing is, 80% of them were into other forms of the occult, primarily through astrological symbolism, the I Ching, Tarot cards, Runes, other forms of divination. And astrology, again, is an open door to the occult, and that’s where you pick up your spirit guides.

Ankerberg: Walter?

Martin: Maxine said she didn’t have an altered state of consciousness and I think you asked her a question that we got lost there for a second, which is, “Do you meditate?”

Taylor: Yes, I do.

Martin: And you don’t think that meditation creates an altered state of consciousness?

Taylor: I’m not in an altered state of consciousness when I’m reading somebody’s horoscope.

Martin: But that wasn’t what the question was. Do you, or do you get into, altered states of consciousness through your meditation?

Taylor: I don’t know.

Martin: That was my point.

Taylor: I don’t know.

Martin: You could be very well influenced by what the Bible says is Satanic power and not even know it.

Taylor: But if I pray….

Martin: To who?

Taylor: To Jesus.

Martin: Who is he?

Taylor: Who is Jesus?

Martin: Who is Jesus?

Taylor: You don’t know?

Martin: I want you to tell me who you think he is.

Taylor: Well, I’m here to discuss astrology. I’m here to discuss astrology, and I feel that….

Martin: This is really the core of it, though.

Warneke: I think that surely you consider yourself “the expert” on that. You should define that.

Taylor: I think you should be the one to define it.

Martin: But there are different Jesuses: The Jesus of the New Age Movement is one of the avatars of world religions; the Jesus of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is the Archangel Michael; the Jesus of the Mormons is one god among many gods; the Jesus of the spiritists is an advanced medium of the sixth sphere. Who’s your Jesus?

Taylor: Jesus of Nazareth.

Martin: Eternal God in human flesh?

Taylor: Yes.

Martin: Second Person of the Trinity?

Taylor: You’re not hearing me.

Martin: No, I just want definitions. Eternal God in human flesh?

Taylor: I’m answering you.

Martin: Is he Eternal God in human flesh?

Taylor: Why don’t you get to your bottom line question.

Martin: That’s it. Who is he?

Taylor: Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish rabbi, who said, “I’ve come to teach the world love….

Martin: Do you believe him?

Taylor: “I’ve come to give you the word. I’ve come to tell you that you can be free. I’ve come to tell you that we are love, and that we’re to love one another.” That’s the Jesus I believe in.

Martin: Do you believe Jesus….

Taylor: That’s the Jesus I believe in.

Martin: Just a second. Just a second…

Taylor: That’s the Jesus I believe in.

Martin: Do you believe the Jesus who said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”

Taylor: Yes.

Martin: No one comes to the Father but through me.”

Taylor: Yes.

Martin: “Neither is there salvation in any other. There is no other name given under heaven among men whereby you must be saved.” Jesus Christ. Do you believe that?

Taylor: Yes.

Martin: So for you, you confess that Jesus Christ is God.

Taylor: Yes.

Martin: Eternal God in human flesh.

Taylor: Yes.

Martin: Then why don’t you obey him?

Taylor: Oh, come on now! You’re baiting me.

Martin: Oh? You don’t obey him.

Taylor: I do obey him.

Martin: Yes, you do…he told you….

Taylor: That’s right, I do.

Martin: No. You don’t obey him, you deny the authority of Christ and of the Scriptures by maintaining that astrology, which God condemns, you can affirm.

Taylor: God does not condemn astrology.

Martin: Oh, yes it does. I can give you a whole bunch of references. Do you want them?

Taylor: I understand that… No I don’t!

Martin: That’s your point. You don’t care.

Taylor: I don’t care about what you’re going to read.

Martin: You don’t care about Scripture.

Taylor: No, that’s not true.

Martin: That’s the Scripture.

Warneke: Can someone else say anything to break up this ridiculous conversation?

Martin: Well, I think it’s ridiculous to you because you’re not in it. You’re just observing, as most scientists do!

Warneke: But I want to be in it.

Taylor: May I say that in the Bible you can take anything and lift it out of context. What I stand on is my faith and my truth.

Martin: I maintain that we have here the same type of contradiction that we have in astrological sources and methods, which namely is, “I can affirm that Jesus Christ is God. I can affirm He is the final authority. I can affirm he is the way, the truth and the life. But on astrology, he’s wrong!”

Taylor: He never said astrology was wrong.

Martin: He said the occult was evil.

Taylor: Jesus Christ never said astrology was wrong. In Luke he said, “Look to the heavens.” He said, “You’ll see the signs.”

Martin: You weren’t in the first program were you?

Warneke: Here’s what you’ve got. Here’s we define astrologers as occult and therefore Jesus….

Ankerberg: Let’s close on that and we’ll pick up the definition of what astrology says about itself as well as what the Lord Jesus Christ says about astrology.

 

BREAK 

Ankerberg: Al right, we’re talking about astrology, and in the last couple of weeks we’ve always gotten into definitions. Let me start off with some biblical definitions so we can see if we can hit this once and for all.

Let me start with one from Deuteronomy 4:19. Moses says, “And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all of the heavenly array, do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshipping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.”

Over in Isaiah 47:13-15: “All of the counsel you have received,” God says to the people, “Has only worn you out. Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month. Let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely, they are like stubble. The fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame.” And it goes on, “That is all they can do for you, these you have labored with and trafficked with since childhood. Each of them goes on in his error. There is not one that can save you.”

And then a specific injunction, which is in Deuteronomy 18:19, “Let no one be found among you who practices divination, or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium, or a spiritist, or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord.”

Now, a solid definition of divination from any biblical encyclopedia will state divination is of two sources: number one, it’s obtaining knowledge by outward signs, and there are two areas—artificial or fake divination depends on the skill of the agent only, reading and interpreting certain signs. Then there is the second area, inspirational divination, where the person is under the immediate influence or control of spirits who enable him to discern the future and to utter information that otherwise he would not be able to do.

Now, the Bible then has a strict admonition in the Old Testament from Moses, speaking for God, that divination of both kinds, both of just the person on a natural basis giving out information or even under the influence of spirits giving out information, obtaining knowledge of the future or of the immediate present by outward signs is condemned.

Now, I think that at least tells us what the biblical record is saying. That is open for discussion, but let me throw one more other thing on the table here and that is that I’d like to quote from Bernard Gittelson who says, “One friend of mine was amazed that on the first visit her astrologer was able to pinpoint major life events that the astrologer could never have known about to specific two-week periods that occurred 20 years before they met. In other words, don’t be surprised by what your astrologer knows about you.”

And, Karen, you finally, as a professional astrologer for 12 years, got to a point where you could do some of those things. You never told us what actually you told to some of your clients. But for those people that are just joining us this week, as you actually were a professional astrologer giving information to people, you said that there were three bases of astrology; you had rejected the first two and you finally hit pay dirt. What was the pay dirt?

Winterburn: It was psychic astrology. And there are many ways to get into this. I was still skeptic enough to reject the kind of religious overtones of my old-fashioned occult buddies who said these are spirits and you use them or they use you and it’s kind of a deal you strike.

But I was also studying Jungian psychology, and that seemed a very fertile field. As an explanation for astrology, Jungian psychology offers a couple of ideas or theories that if an astrologer latches on to them, utilizes them in a work with their clients and work with themselves, you know, it does lead to spirit guide contact or it does lead to increased ESP or however you want to phrase it. One of the concepts is synchronicity and the other is archetype.

And if you look at Jung’s definition of synchronicity in his book Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche, he says that this is a principle that connects a psyche, an individual mind, with a physical object and it is an acausal principle. We’re not talking about the planet “causing” a person to behave this way or to be motivated in this way but there is still a principle operative there which connects these two. What is it? It manifests itself in meaningful coincidences in time, which astrologers read in their charts.

Well, he says that what activates it, that contact, is the archetypal processes in the unconscious. Then you have to ask him, “Okay, what do you mean by archetypal processes?” And you go to his work on archetypes and the unconscious. And archetype is extremely difficult to define. I don’t blame him for that, because it’s really a concept that does tend to get away from you. There is, first of all, no content in an archetype. There’s even very little form.

But what an archetype is, it is some thing that is dynamic, that works in and on the psyche, in and on my mind, to form…. Well, first of all, it’s not even part of my psyche, okay? So it’s like an alien something that’s working in and on my psyche. He said it was analogous to the axial system of a crystal in that it utilizes the material and the content of something else other than itself—like me, my mind and my thoughts—to form out of its own logic or with its own logic and intention an image or an idea which then connects it with a person.

Now, if you do archetypal meditation, if you do archetypal work with your clients or in-chart reading, if you really try to understand the archetypal images which these planet present—in other words, if you’re doing astrology based on “the archetype of Mars,” “the archetype of Venus,” getting in again to the history—no way can you pass off the ancient ideas that these are gods and goddesses who have certain characteristics and requirements of human beings. But that’s all put in perspective, you know, it’s psychoanalytic jargon, it’s not ancient religion.

But if you’re doing this work, if you go into this over and over again and if your intention is to gain enlightenment or to gain empowerment through relationship with the archetypes in your own unconscious and in facilitating this with your client, well, this is the stuff demonic possession is made of. So what you are doing is you’re opening yourself up to this alien intelligence. The Greek word for demon is “disembodied intelligence.” You know, I’m not talking about devils with horns and stuff, it is simply “disembodied intelligence.” You know, extraterrestrials, there’s lots of people’s theories about what these guys are and who they are and all the rest of it. The Bible speaks of them as the powers, rulers and authorities.

Ankerberg: Alright, next week we’re going to find out how this information about spirit guides and spiritism and Carl Gustav Jung and psychology, how this impacts Terry as a scientist who is trying to promote astrology on a scientific basis and so I hope that you’ll join us.

Read Part 4